Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Just going to say it:

Even though I really don't need to and no one is asking me to, and I flatter myself in thinking anyone cares, I'm going to say it. For far too long I've hidden behind some self-censored curtain of anonymity on this issue for fear of those I love and respect reprimanding me, and I don't care to anymore. I am grateful for this blog and for the Internet - the wealth of information is absolutely priceless. I cannot begin to express the much needed spiritual strength I've found here.

The Church, as far as I know, has not raised their hand to the square on this issue. From my own research, meditation, and introspection, I can only say that the Church is simply using its influence to state their uncategorical stance on traditional marriage - that to not say anything on an issue so central to its teachings would be, in essence, a sanction of gay marriage.

This is not President Monson telling us that the Lord has told us to vote yes. This is President Monson and the other leaders reminding us of the importance of the traditional family not just in this world, but more especially in the world to come.

The Church wants its message to go forth and be known. Fine. I can totally respect that.

But for me, while I do not know where I stand on a religious standpoint with this issue, I do know where I stand on a political standpoint.

And before anyone says anything, yes I do understand the spiritual and even celestial logistics behind a heterosexual coupling. I don't want to get into this now.

I'm a member of some discussions on Facebook regarding this issue, and it's only helped. While some have expressed very calmly and respectfully their reasonings behind their voting intentions, those who have expressed their staunch, unyielding, and at times perhaps unrighteous judgements upon those of us who struggle to agree with the church on this political issue have only steered me further into the "no" category. They are not my sole reason for voting no, but I kid you not: the hate and otherwise un Christlike feelings exist on both sides of this fence.

One person said "Well then let's start discussion groups such as Mormons For Premarital sex, Mormons for Drinking, Mormons for Smoking, etc"

It's a load! We cannot legislate only Christian values here, and we certainly would not even dare to narrow the field to legislate Mormon principles into national law. It just would not happen. I wouldn't want it to. We cannot force our beliefs onto people. That's not very American, and it goes against the Eleventh Article of Faith. Let people worship how, where or what they may.

And how can we even fathom to argue for "preserving marriage" when, even in the Celestial sense, the Church still teaches polygamy? Top leaders once practiced it to a large scale. There are countless people who would argue that is antithetical to preserving marriage and the family. We cannot claim divine inspiration here and leave it at that as if it ends all conversation. There is reason for everyone to believe that polygamy is hardly traditional and would negatively impact the children (not to mention the women) involved.

To this I'd also like to add that I believe it's inherently wrong to make something deemed unconstitutional, constitutional. That is more frightening to me than ensuring homosexual couples can marry.

We have nothing - repeat: nothing - to stand upon here politically. The Church and the State are and should be separate entities. While I respect and understand others dissenting opinions and votes, I couldn't in good conscience vote yes, so I'm voting no on 8.


Chanelle said...

I can understand in part how you feel regarding prop. 8 and how you view the church's involvement. If you are unsure about how the apostles and church are being involved I would recommend that it would be better to seek wisdom and understand to Him who knows all, our Father in Heaven instead of trying to be persuaded by men. In a sense we have raised our hand to the square as we did that when we sustained them as prophets, seers and revelators. Yes they are men, but they are called of God. The Lord will never permit them to lead us astray.
I don't know why people are only focusing on the LDS/Mormon church, as many other churches are as involved in it. The church comes forth regarding moral issues and came forth with the Proclamation to the World regarding the family and marriage being between a man and woman before this election. So, we already should know where the church stands, but it is up to us to seek to obtain a confirmation and personal witness. As Joseph Smith was confused, we too are faced with confusion at times and I know that as we seek to turn to the Lord and putting our trust in Him, that He will answer us and by the power of the Holy Ghost make the truth known unto us. Even though I don't know all things and understand all things, I have obtain my own personal witness and in turn made a personal conviction to stand for marriage being defined as between a man and woman. It seems you have done studying and researched things, which is good to study things out, but ulimately God, His Holy Prophets and scriptures are the sources we should turn to, and as we do, the Holy Ghost will make the truth of things known unto us.
Some reason I am voting Yes on Prop. 8 are becuase I want to protect our children from being taught in schools about gay marriage, as it has already happened in Massachusettes. I don't feel that voting Yes on Prop. 8 is unfair as their benfits that they get wont be taken away. I feel strongly about defining marriage between a man and a woman. To me, I weigh the good and bad consequences both ways and feel that there are far more bad consequences that will happen and result if the majority is no. If the majority votes Yes, to me they can still live a happy life with whomever they choose and obtain the same benefits, and see more good than bad. If the majority votes no, then it means the majority of the residents are in acceptance of same-sex marriage and I will uphold the law. Also, what upsets me is that California already voted on this issue and 4 activist judges ruled against the will of the people and I feel that it wasn't right. The same thing just happened in Conneticut as well. When we vote, we expect the judges will rule in favor of the laws, and to hear that they go against what people voted on, which was the majority, makes me feel that we need good judges in. So, I think it is sad that we even have to vote on this issue as it had already been decided.
Preservingmarriage.org and protectmarriage.com have more info.

Lisa said...

"Also, what upsets me is that California already voted on this issue and 4 activist judges ruled against the will of the people and I feel that it wasn't right."

But Chanelle, that's not the entire story. It isn't a matter of the will of the people versus the will of some judges. The judges are there to interpret the Constitution - in this case, the California Constitution. They found that the people voted for something unconstitutional.

It's not the first time the judges have gone against "the will of the people." The same thing happened for interracial marriage - even a decade after interracial marriage was deemed legal, the majority of the people found it "immoral."

Would you agree with it being immoral? Nah, but many people did and still do.

The judges aren't there to cater to the people. They're there to do what is right regardless.

There are other arguments which could be made here (all of them I've found to be inherently wrong or deceptive), but this certainly is not one of them. This is the central lie the proponents to 8 use.

It's just not true.

To avoid a lengthlier reply, I'm going to invite you to read some of my past entries. You might be surprised about the truth behind such things as "rights" and whathaveyou.

I was confused. I'm no longer confused. This was an issue I took (and take) quite seriously. I respect your decision to vote yes, but I really feel there is no logical basis with which to support Proposition 8. Religious reasons are fine, but not when it comes to people who are not religious. That argument dies there. But I do support your decision to uphold the Church's stance. I just don't think the Church's stance is particularly appropriate here. I wouldn't want another religion to impose its beliefs into my life.

Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to comment :)

Proud Mommy said...

oh lisa.....

I have been thinking A LOT about your posts lately, and have discussed them with my husband and some close friends.
You keep saying the church has no business in getting involved in this prop. I seriously disagree, as Im sure you know...always disagreeing with you:) First you do know that we are not the only church supporting this, there are a ton of churches supporting prop 8 and 102, but only the Mormons are being singled out as the bad guys, the haters. Does that not upset you? Am I a bad person for thinking same sex marriage is wrong? no. Just because I don't condone what we believe as unrighteous behavior, I am a bad person. As you are choosing to be your own person-making your own decisions with what the world and society wants you to believe, I am choosing to be my own person against what society believes and what I know in my heart is right. Even if president monson didnt come forth and ask us to support this prop. I fully believe that the same members would be just as supportive. The church has every right to be involved, my gosh...this is what our main gospel principles involves-THE FAMILY!...we are not taking anything away from gay people. They can marry and have benefits. We are just fighting for our rights to keep the constitution the same. one man one woman.
Did you know that No supporters have names of the financial donors to the YES campaign and are "digging for dirt" on them. How is that ok..how is giving money to support your beliefs bad, and why are the NO supporters lowering themselves to this level...
About things that we do not understand here on earth yet-polygamy...ok say they are in fact true, but you do not believe it...you leave the church because you don't agree.then what? you don't show faith here on earth so in heaven you wont receive the blessings we are promised here on earth if we are righteous. As the thought of polygamy in the afterlife can be a sore subject...i choose to have faith. You said blind faith can not all be good. How is that bad? If I choose to just have faith do you view me as weak? As a brainless follower. Why can't it mean I have a strong testimony of our savior and he won't lead me astray? Why does there have to be answers to everything?? Having Faith is hard, thats why many dont believe unless they can see. Lisa, you can choose to have faith and not have to have answers for everything. Members of the church are not perfect but the Savior and the gospel IS! It is beautiful, pure and perfect in every way!!

It makes me sad that you have put our church in a negative light. It makes me sad that I have to be on the defense here to a member of my same belief. This will be my last comment lisa...
As i respect you as a person and I know you feel strongly about this stuff. I just choose to have faith, amaybe it is blind faith, but I am ok with that, I have peace in my heart with that, as I hope you can too someday.

Chedner said...

The Lord will never permit them to lead us astray.

I've never understood this statement when combined with the LDS belief of agency, that Christ's plan revolves completely around Him not forcing/controlling us in any way towards anything.

That is to say, according to the LDS taught Plan of Salvation, God will never "not permit" anyone from doing anything. It goes against the whole concept of agency on which the Plan of Salvation vitally hinges.

From the scriptures we do read of examples where God has intervened forcefully (so to speak) when His children have gone astray... but it's always been after they have gone astray -- never before.

These examples include men of God, prophets even.

(Now, I'm not saying such to prove that one should vote against Proposition 8, but to hopefully help one shed the false pedestal on which many have placed the prophets and apostles. Matthew 23:8-12.)


Thank you -- not for voting against Proposition 8 (although that's a perk), but for actually looking at the issue fairly and objectively (such, in my book -- and others -- is the true definition of tolerance).

Lisa said...


I wish you'd read back over my entry(-ies). I haven't said that (about blind faith) at all - just said it's not *always* a good idea. I venture to say even the general authorities would agree with that. Its in scripture (pray to know for yourself?) I never called you weak.

I'm sorry to see you go (dissenting opinion is always crucial in debates); just know you're always welcome back should you feel like it.


Kristie said...

I think you are my new best friend! It is a refreshing relief to see others feel the same way as I do.

As for others who question the faith and testimonies of those who are against Prop 8, I wonder what makes them think that that is their job. I also wonder how someone can have such exclusionary viewpoints and know that one day we will all be judged on how we lived our lives and treated others.
Sometimes I think that God created so many people with differences as a challenge to the "norm" to see how the "normal" people will treat them. I, for one, do not want to have face Him on that judgment day and explain why I felt it was OK to have certain laws for some people and certain laws for others based on feelings they have no control over.

Uh, oh. I'm using your comment area as my own blog!

Anyway, I'm glad you found my blog and I'm grateful for your comments. I'll definitely be a frequent visitor here.

Take care,

You have a very brave blog. Great job.